After having a FOURTH trnasaction reversed from Paypal, costing me over $180.00, I asked Paypal WHY they had made their decision in the buyers favor, beyond the original "We suspect the purchase was made with fraudulent funds"

Didn't get an answer to that, but they did state that I did not qulaify for their Seller Protectin Policy.
Why not?
Because I am sellign digital products and digital porducts are not covered under that policy!

So basically, if you sell digital products, as ALL mine are, as all mod sellers products are, then you're f****d. Any buyer can come along, buy whatever they want, and then dispute the purchase with paypal...with ot without just cause, and Paypal will decide in their favor...eveyr time!

You're faced with the cost, you've lost the money on that sale, you've basically just gven away the product, and ... you have NO recourse! None, nada, zero, zip!

I'm done venting...i'm pisssed off and I could care less about the typos.

maybe you know why io don't use it, use a real merchant account

I'm sorry I don't have the money to throw around thast you do Joshua.
"Beggars can't be choosers" springs to mind.
Apart from some of the policies of Paypal...a "real" merchant account works differently...how?

Furthermore....almost all "real" merchant accounts require you to give them, at least, a bank account for depositing of the funds.....to HAVE a bank account, you have to be a US citizen.
I'm not........remember?

when do you get your citizenship, then how do you get your money out of paypal, stormpay gives you more protection then buyer, and ProPay.com you cnba charge credit cards wroks like paypal and its not a merchant account but then again it is real nice service, --------------Josh

I'm at the last stage now...but that could anywhere up to 12 months away.
I don't,... I leave it there and spend it as I want, or I have them send me a check which my wife cashes.
Stormpay, another auction site I sell on does not recommend them...has had complaints, so I don;t use them. Plus, 6.9% + .69c trans fee? ouch! And you have to pre-fund your account.
Propay...required to enter your SSN

Additionally...neither are currently integrated into Cubecart

stormpay is (SMILE) wjhat aiciton site

what auction site?

twisted, i feel you bud...

honestly it you were to bring it to court... LOL... and you were using my dw mod.. you could allows show the SQL changed the amount of downloads at the same time the data was transfered into the persons computer :-x

but lets not jump to the courts..

maybe a 'merchant agreement' on paypal might help... i know with godaddy.com they make you make a agreement that you can recharge them...

i will have to look into it... i am ALWAYS looking for ways to improve myself, and my mods...

there has to be a solution.. its just figuring one out :-)

Tony~!

Sorry to hear about what happened twisted. As for a real merchant paypal is good because there's no monthly fees, most merchants charge you that. And unless it's a ecehck funds are usually available right away.

I've looked into other merhcants but unless you wanna to pay a monthly fee and in some cases a setup fee then paypal is best. Ikobo doesn't charge a monthly fee or setup fee but because of there s**t service, low recieving limit and they only accept VISA it's a poor option.

you know.... i've been thinking... (i know it doesnt happen often.. but)

if you were to burn cds, even without cases and send then to the address.. (charge 7$ more) you could have a tracking number that would prove the person got the data... and paypal.com would be able to let you have the money... sense you have the tracking number and UPS.com says that the person recieved the package...

wow, it would be a little more of a pain.. but for 180$ it might be worth the time.

plus then you would have more of an edge to people wanting a backup... its a off PC backup of your work... what better.

Tony~!

Now thats a way to look at it... the bad thing is with paypal the seller has to have prof the buyer got the good and sending the file on cd is prof.

I use paypal but then again i dont sell downloads...

and you could still have downloadable products... but you could also state a backup copy will be sent

Tony~!

fraud point blank

Osk, i already talked to you about this in private but i will just post this here so everyone is clear on it.

I am referring to REALLY sending the CD to the person.. keeping records of the tracking info and be able to track them and have them say 'deleivery confirmed'

that way if someone wants there money back, you have a tracking number for paypal to decline them the money

however.. you can STILL have instant downloadable products... but you will just have to send it out as while to protect your booty

doing this may take a lil extra money (about 7$ via UPS) but.. as twisted knows.. this may be WELL worth it in the long run.

haha.. i am always thinking of good ways to save mine and others booties... lol

Tony~!

I know this won't help, but here is PayPal's policy for protection sellers:

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p...ections-outside

This is the point causing problems:



The thing I don't get though, is that a customer's entire order history is stored in the database and in their account. Doesn't that count for anything??

no, cuz it is not proof that you got it or not..

see the problem is i could send someone.. lets say $45 for say... a mod

and the person didnt REALLY have it.. so they never sent it.. well i would go tell paypal and they would send me my money back..

but the problem that twisted is having is that he has no PROOF! he sent it..

yeah he has the orders... and sense he uses my dw mod he has it saying in the SQL that the person downloaded it 1,2,3 times.. but paypal doesnt have PROOF that those are real number and he didnt just edit that into it..

now if he sends out a backup CD after the order.. after the digital download... now he has a TRACKING NUMBER.. and what does the mean... now he has PROOF!

cuz now paypal.com can goto ups.com look up the tracking number.. and see 'delievery confirmed' and know that the person is just trying to screw twisted out of 45... 80.. 180.. $'s..

Tony~!

Thats not a bad idea Tony!
25c for the CD, maybe 75 cents to pack it, and about $4.00 to send it. And I could put a note on the webiste saying that all virtual deliveries WILL BE accompanied by a tangible delivery and why.
May cause them to think twice about giving bogus info. Maybe...
Well, even if it doesn't, at least that way I will have proof of a tangible, shipped product.
saztar...the thinking man's modder!
heh

That would suck for the people who actually pay and dont try to jip the creator of that MOD. When I buy a MOD, I want it as soon as possible. I wouldnt want to wait a week or so just to get a MOD. Thats crazy!

Thats just my 2 cents.

No no, Chris...saztar is not suggesting that I MAIL people the mod INSTEAD of making it available instantly by download.
His suggestion is that a copy of the mod be mailed to the customer, AS WELL, they still get the instant download. This is to simply offer me, as the seller, a measure of proof that I can use in instances where it would not normally qualify for seller protection under Paypals current policies.
This is good for the customer too, because then they have a physical copy of the mod in the event that they happen to lose all their own files due to server or computer crash.

ooooooh, hold on... you could EVER make sure that their ADDRESS on paypal.com is confirmed :-x

or make sure that the share it with you when send the payment... you use my paypal IPN and i could make you a copy of a custom IPN that will make sure that it is..

please if you put 'there will be no refunds of refused packages' they can just refuse the shipment and tell paypal they didnt want it anymore...

there are like a 1,000,000 ways to find loop holes in this.. and i am so good at finding them.. lol.. maybe thats why my mods are so secure..

:-x

Tony~!

ummm payloadz.com only way to get around this it uses paypal and it secures you with paypal might wanna check it

All that sounds good and doing it may stop folks from filing a claim just for kicks, but you can still get burned.

The following story is true, the names have been changed because this happened 4 years ago and I don't remember them:

I operate a rental center. I rent contractor and construction equipment. A gentleman, Mr. Smith, entered the establishment and inquired about renting a generator. Mr. Smith was videotaped entering and leaving the premises. To rent the equipment, Mr. Smith had to show a picture ID. He used his driver's license. He paid for a one week rental with his credit card. He signed the credit card slip and the rental invoice. After one week, he decided he would like to keep it a month, again he used his credit card and signed the slip. Then he paid for an additional month, again with the credit card.

I then received notification that he was contesting the charges. No problem right? I have the guy on camera, I have his signature on everything. I have his driver's license, his date of birth, heck I even know what kind of car he drives and its license plate. (We get that sometimes.)

The credit card company (VISA, yes that VISA, not some intermediary) sided with him. His claim was simply it wasn't him. He even convinced a judge in a court of law. So, not only was I out $1500 in rental revenue, he also never returned the generator ($2300 retail value).

I was not the only business affected. In total he got away with better than $10,000 worth of merchandise. He got away with it because he was in his mid 40's, had no criminal record, and had never disputed a credit card purchase.

The good news is, he got greedy. About a year later, he ended up in jail for trying the same sort of thing again.

The moral is it sucks when you have to money back that is rightfully yours. Unless you get DNA from them, there is always someone who will weasel out of paying.

good idea, you could make them give a hair.. or spit in a lilttle tube.. then you have DNA

Dont worry, i am COMPLETELY joking..

How did he get away with that in court... on video camera?

Tony~!

He said "Judge that isn't me. It looks alot like me, but it isn't me."

I was then asked to prove it was him. The judge decided since the credit card company believed it was not his signature on the sales slips, he could be telling the truth. I was absolutely floored by the stupidity in the room. After being warned against using profanity, I decided it was best if I just left.

The whole thing was like a bad nightmare. I was looking for a rabbit hole and the Mad Hatter.

thats nuts... scary to think that could happen to just about any business...

:-x Tony~!

if u want protection for digital goods use payloadz.com point blank

I don't want protection for the product....I want the protectin for ME!
I have checked out Payloadz....i don;t see how it is any more secure than using, say, saztars download mod. Plus it has the added disadvantage of......MORE FEES!
Yes...they have a free account, with a piddly little $250/month transaction limit.
As much as i just hate to burst your bubble, joshua...not everything you recommend is the be-all and end-all....point blank.

Another thing just occurred to me, Tony.
Paypals seller protection only applies to sales made in/to the USA, Canada and UK.
I have customers in Norway, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, Portugal, etc.
Even your "ship em a CD" idea won't work there, and it is the other foregin customers (ok, Russia!) that have been giving me this problem.
I think I just wasted $30 on some cds' and jewel cases! lol

guess it just comes to this there is no real way to stay safe.. but we all know that..

Or people can stop being idiots, pay for the MOD that somebody worked hard on, and live life.

I think that sounds the best so far.

This is kind of getting out of control, ya know?

.:|C|:.

true

PaypalSucks.com


You all should read the stories on this site. I had several run ins with Paypal when I was a powerseller on Ebay (before ebay bought Paypal) and now that eBay owns them it has only gotten worse.

Maybe you should sign up with Nochex???? They run the same as paypal, accept all credit & debit cards, & don't take the money back off you on dodgy payments!

btw guys - I think the following might help clarify exactly what has happened

there are TWO distinct possibilities

a) Funds being withdrawn due to that fraud thing they say (which i think is twisteds problem) - this CANNOT be avoided whether you have tracking numbers, photos of the person receiving, permanent ink in packages to stain the receiver - NOTHING

What has happened is

i) the buyer has used a dodgy credit card or a bank transfer has failed and funds have been charged back - which can or cannot lead to account limitation

or

ii) the buyer has had there account limited due to POSSIBLE (i state possible) connections to fraudulent transaction e.g. a new paypal user receiving $5000 for a Rolex they sold on ebay

in this instance PAYPAL reverses the payments (not the buyer) due to an impending investigation into account behaviour - they ask for more proof of id, receipts of purchases etc etc etc. they will not restore the buyers access until these are received and verified by their in house fraud squad who state (this may take no LESS than 30 days to resolve)

if access is ever restored (highly unlikely) all funds that were spent by the seller in the period between receiving the payment and account limitation will be returned to the affected sellers

= ALL OF THIS IS A basic failsafe for paypal (so they are not refunding a possible $5000 to the defrauded buyer of that non existant Rolex and having to pay out a possible $5000 to other sellers who received the Rolex proceeds - if you know what i mean)


the other case

the buyer files a claim of nonreceipt (as a complaint of goods not as described is instantly dismissed and awarded in the sellers favour).

this is the nut - when they ask for transaction details fill in the tracking with INTANGIBLE GOODS - paypal will never file in the favour of the buyer as they do not cover downloadable media for either party (buyer or seller) so the transaction will stand and you will keep your money

THIS IS ALL FROM EXPERIENCE IN GETTING BURNT EVERY WHICH WAY ON BOTH SIDES OF THE TABLE...

The classic was PayPal limiting my account - withdrawing all funds paid to sellers. I then pay them all by cheque - get my account back and they get repaid... Nightmare

Yes PayPal sucks but if you play it right you never get bummed unless you get targeted by users with fraudulent accounts.

===

So in the case of Twisted he received payment from el Moscow Laptops PayPal account

Hes selling loads of laptops and phones through a new ebay account - may even have taken payment for some

Ebay suspends his account, PayPal red flags are ringing so they instantly reverse all transactions and lock his account.

That is how you lost the $180

Would love to...unfortunately, I don't live in the UK

Sorry to hear that Twisted.

How about this as a solution. When a customer buys a digital download item, the cart will send them an email after they pay that has a link in it that tells the cart its ok to proceed to download the item as it does now. The link would put into that database that the email was verified and the user agreed to pay the cost of the download.

This should be good enough that paypal would accept this. Only the user that has the password for that email account can open it and get the mail.

Jason

I realize I'm very late on replying...

I've experienced a similar problem. PayPal emails to say that a buyer claims the "product" (digital download) was never received; disputes the charge. Although PayPal allows the buyer to provide a detailed complaint in their comment section, they only provide the seller with the request to supply proof of delivery via a verifiable tracking number. No option to add comments like the buyer had. I've submitted the file name for my server's raw access log showing the customer id, file name downloaded and added the IP address and date from the buyer as my "tracking number". The case is now "under review". I'll be very discouraged if they decide in the buyer's favor.

Granted... this represents less than 1% of buyers and dealing with Chargebacks from merchants accounts would be just as bad; dealing with unscrupulous buyers via PayPal really makes administrating a site a headache.

Since the beginning of using PayPal as processing payments - I had atleast up to 4 chargebacks.. even though I had provided informations (products delivered, payment paid, etc).

HECK.. since I signed up with StormPay, I got atleast 2 chargebacks from a guy who from Asia... the guy bought 2 items and paid.... after I delievered items, he/she got money back cuz of FRAUD payment... but still whoever got my money. That was about few month ago... Nov or Dec.

Yup...thats the very reason my Russian buyer got theirs back.
Seems the Eastern bloc is not a good place to do business with.

I my UK buyers tho.

I agree.



I gotta say.. I do too. UK & USA is my best place to do biz with.



OH! Recently I sold a website to a guy from .... Russia.... but lucky he's a good guy.... paid (PayPal) after I sent the item through email. So far, no chargeback or any trouble with this guy.

Have any one used IKOBO they serve more countries and provide you with adebit card to withdraw cash from.

Not me.. I had never used IKOBO - I believe I do own an account at iKobo but never used it at all.

I mostly use PayPal, and StormPay. Upcoming future will use LinkPoint (had just registered late Dec or early Jan).

Don't give up yet....it could still happen
He didn't sell lap-tops did he?